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Ye Olde Archives => Shattering Myths => Topic started by: Bob Shaffer on May 11, 2015, 11:09:24 am

Title: Eternal punishment
Post by: Bob Shaffer on May 11, 2015, 11:09:24 am
Heard the host today talking about how some "sinners" will be condemned by God to suffer eternally in "eternal darkness".

This is absolutely crazy and logically makes absolutely no sense!

Easy to prove:  would you personally torture or condone torturing someone? (If the answer is yes, then you have a problem!)

Otherwise, the obvious answer (for any Christian or any other decent human being) is an emphatic NO!

Therefore if God (or Yahweh) would condemn anyone (and some are alluding it would be thousands or even multiple millions!) to eternal suffering (torment = TORTURE), then this would make you more merciful (and just) then he is!   

This is an obvious ridiculous concept tied in with the erroneous idea of the "immortality" of the soul.   God's word says "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die" - not "it shall suffer eternal torment because it's immortal".    Immortality is a gift that has to be earned (qualified for).  Those that do not and will not repent (most will) will be mercifully destroyed.

You also have to wonder what possible good could come from such injustice?   Or how about the mother (or other close relatives or friends) who are "saved" - how could they enjoy eternity knowing someone they love (or care about) is suffering?

Same logic applies to the crazy notion of God tormenting people in "hell fire" forever!
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Sheree on June 04, 2015, 09:07:55 am
obviously didnt pay attention to the show
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Bob Shaffer on June 05, 2015, 11:00:45 am
Oh, did I miss something?   Please explain. 
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Sheree on June 06, 2015, 07:23:36 am
sorry I did misread your post..at first I thought you was disagreeing with Yada.. :-\
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Woast on October 07, 2015, 12:55:53 pm
Listen to the archive of this show again. It really is worth it.

Yahowah does NOT actively torture souls, nor does the 'host' Yada make that claim. Rather, what is being conveyed here is that those individuals who work AGAINST Yah by advancing religious or political schemes are punished through separation from Yah. It is the same for the ha satan, the adversary. Those entities who actively work against Yah are separated from him for eternity as a consequence of their actions. Those who advance the adversary's schemes join him in She'owl.

Read http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh-God_Damn_Religion-Krima-Damnation.YHWH

The torture implied here is passive. It is a product of the separated individual's realization that they are eternally separated from the creator and his creation. To say that She'owl is torture would be like saying prision IS torture, which might be true in part on a psychological level, but it is not true by definition.
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Bob Shaffer on October 08, 2015, 01:49:26 pm
Sounds like you believe everyone is born with an "immortal soul"?  So after we die, it is just a question of where we will spend eternity.   That what you believe?

Passive or active - it's still torture, something Yahweh is incapable of.
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: borobundy on October 09, 2015, 12:46:25 pm
Yada, yada, yada...
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Woast on October 19, 2015, 12:20:14 pm
sonofagun, I don't believe everyone has an immortal soul. In fact, most people will simply die and their existence will end. Yahowah presents 3 paths.
Ignore him and he will ignore you. No punishment, just the finite existence that all humanists and atheists expect. Death brings the end of both the physical body and the consciousness of the individual.
Join Yahowah as part of his covenant family and a perk is that we get to spend eternity with him. Its not the only perk, and is not necessarily "Salvation" in the sense of the Christian get out of jail free card. Its one of several beneficial terms of the agreement which allows us to be adopted into Yah's family.
Working against Yahowah results in joining the individual's master in his domain for eternity. Its clear in Shemowth / Names / Exodus 20:7 that Yahowah will "lo'naqah", never forgive those who decieve, or delude Yah's word. Those who promote lies which lead to lifelessness and destruction. Never is a long time. While Yahowah will not torture them, they will be judged by him and will be incarcerated in a place called She'owl.
Yahowah has a great number of examples of consequences which could be rendered as torture using the combination of passive and active renderings:
40 years wandering in a desert, consequence of the peoples adultery
Moshe getting so close to the promised land but not entering, consequence of distorting Yah's words
Cain being exiled from home and family, consequence of killing his brother and then lying about it, marked to live out his days completely in futility as an example of the separation that is She'owl.

There are more examples of consequences to peoples actions, some consequences are good and others are not. The point is that people have the free will to choose a path, the consequence of that path is always clear as it is in the case of She'owl. Howsha/He Saves/Hosea 13:14 speaks directly of the qeteb(sting) of She'owl indicating that there is indeed a suffering, but it is the suffering that comes with incarceration, not torture. Revelation also speaks of She'owl quite extensively, and how there will be people, not just demons there.

In each of the examples provided, you could twist it to say that they were being tortured, but the fact of the matter is that their situations were not torture in the same way that denying a child a candy at the supermarket is not torture. If you were to take the candy in hand and taunt the child, THAT would be considered actively torturing the child.

Contrast this to Islam's Allah who according to their Quran spends most of his time in hell, torturing all but the most ruthless Muslims.

Something I not that I did not address in your original statement was "You also have to wonder what possible good could come from such injustice?   Or how about the mother (or other close relatives or friends) who are "saved" - how could they enjoy eternity knowing someone they love (or care about) is suffering?"

Another of the benefits of those who join Yah is the covering provided by his Ruwach Qodesh, Set-Apart Spirit. The covering that the Ruwach Qodesh provides make is so that Yahowah cannot see those hurtful things we've done, making it possible for us to be in his presence. In the same manner, we will not be able to see the hurtful aspects of our past, a beneficial consequence of our relationship to Yahowah. In short, it won't be a problem because we won't remember them.

Just as Yahowah separated 'owr(light) from choshek(darkness), yowm(day) from layl(night), maym(waters) from 'erets(land), Yah also separates those who join his family from those who work against him and his family. Take a good hard look at Mattanyah/Matthew 10:34. From Yada Yah Book 4, Chapter 1:
“I came not to bring peace, but instead the sword of division and discord.” (Mattanyah / Matthew 10:34) The Greek word for knife and discord, machaira is derived from mache, meaning “variance, dispute, division, and contention.” In context, Yahowsha’ is saying that each of us must make a decision: trust Yahowah or man. You are either with Him or against Him—on one side of the divide or the other. Both Hebrew and Greek words speak of sharp implements that cause divisions requiring decisions.

The notion of separation and division is even more accentuated when you look at the garden in Bare'syth/Genesis. Yahowah associated with the humans within the garden, and did not associate with those outside of the protective enclosure. Further, when you look at how he dealt with both Cain and with Esau. Yahowah did not kill them. He did not torture them. They lived, but they had to live separated from the benefits of association with Yahowah.
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Bob Shaffer on October 28, 2015, 06:05:04 am
My statements and logic still stand.  Let's not confuse punishment with torture.  God's law(s) are natural and breaking them brings natural, automatic consequences.   I tend to look at our relationship with him as a father (or parent) with his children - you would never torture your children EVER, but a loving parent would sometimes (and reluctantly in some cases) punish his child for being rebellious or disobedient - the only reason being to instruct that child in the correct way to behave leading to good things.   What happens to us after death MUST stand up to logic and reason which most "religionists" and religions ignore due to their ignorance or to further a particular agenda.
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Woast on October 30, 2015, 03:11:54 pm
Sonofagun, your argument "My statements and logic still stand" is known as circular reasoning because it points to your previous statements as evidence, which is invalid in a logical debate. There has been no evidence provided to prove your case against eternal incarceration, and against the stated purpose of She'owl as the place of separation from Yahowah. Nor has there been evidence to prove that separation / incarceration is a form of torture.

Our discussion is not about defining punishment and torture, as the definitions of the two are both similar and the result gets us nowhere. The problem lies in separating consequence from both punishment and torture. Moreover, it is in the understanding of how freewill is considered. Children are considered to have limited freewill, because they are underdeveloped and inexperienced. They are taught how to wield their freewill through instructions and consequences. The responsibility for this instruction falls on the parent, and it is that framework which helps us understand our adoptive relationship with Yahowah.

In this way, using your statement that "suffering" = torment = torture, directly implicates Yahowah as a torturer when he reveals the consequence to Yishra'el of suffering in the desert in Numbers 14:33. Since we know that Yahowah does not torture, then how do we explain his imposed suffering on Yishra'el? Yahowah allowed the Adversary to afflict Job, causing him to suffer. Does this mean that Yahowah by proxy tortured Job? From this we can deduce that suffering ≠ torture. Yes, there is suffering in She'owl. No, it is not torture inflicted by Yahowah.

In relation to Yahowah's words, the hebrew word for 'torture'(עינויים) does not even appear. Terms for imprisonment, separation, and incarceration ('oster in Prov 30:9, tephas in Prov 30:9) can be found in numerous places throughout his word. For the sake of clarity, I've not included the passages in Revelation as it is only presented in Greek, but there are numerous places in that testimony which corroborate with Yahowah's own words concerning eternal punishment.

The fact that there is a transgression that Yahowah will NEVER (lo'naqah) forgive: obscuring and distorting, twisting and perverting his name (Ex 20:7), means that there is an eternal punishment.

In your last comment, you mention "God's law(s)". Yahowah does not have laws. He has never had laws. There is no basis for the term 'law' in the towrah, prophets or psalms. The notion of law is incompatible with the relationship he proposes with Abraham, and incompatible with the core tenant of his covenant with us, freewill. Towrah does not mean law, neither does Qara which is mistranslated as Leviticus. The notion of breaking laws is entirely religious; it is the mechanism by which they control their subjects. Laws and covenants are two different things. Covenants are an agreement between equals on a set of conditions, and as such they are only applicable to those individuals. Laws are applied in relationship to land or community and do not require agreement. Laws are also enforced, and restrictive to free will. Laws do not instruct, the Towrah instructs, teaches and guides. Do not confuse Yahowah's instructions with "law". That perspective is entirely religious.

Your unfounded error in reasoning is the statement that "Therefore if God (or Yahweh) would condemn anyone (and some are alluding it would be thousands or even multiple millions!) to eternal suffering (torment = TORTURE)". The term 'suffering' is the crux of the issue here, and suffering does not equate to torment. That is errant. Torture can cause suffering, suffering does not cause torture. A person can 'torture' another person. But the action is reversed if a person 'suffers' another person. The terms are not equivalent in English, and the term torture doesn't even appear in Yahowah's Hebrew words.

The fact remains that there is a place of eternal incarceration, She'owl, which is mentioned starting in Genesis and continuing throughout the prophets and psalms. There is an activity that will not (eternal in hebrew) be forgiven. There is a precedent in that ha'Satan(the adversary) cannot be destroyed, and so he will be eternally separated in She'owl, along with his promoters. There is no evidence to say that this is torture on Yahowah's part. There is evidence, however, to say that the separation of those who work against Yah will indeed occur, and that they will not simply cease to exist (see Numbers 16:30).

Your reasoning that if Yah's plan were to eternally torture those who crossed him would make him unlovable is sound, but the equation you make by extension, of eternal suffering in She'owl as equating to torture, is false. In Hosea it is made abundantly clear that there are souls in She'owl and that those souls did not simply die. She'owl is separation, but separation/exile is not torture.

"What happens to us after death MUST stand up to logic and reason..." If this is the case, then we must acknowledge that there are 3 possible fates: 1) Join Yahowah for eternity, 2) Reject/Ignore Yahowah and simply cease to exist, 3) Join the Adversary in his eternal incarceration in She'owl. The majority of people will fall under the 2nd category. Those who actively work on behalf of Halal ben Shachar join him in his domain of separation from Yahowah. Those who join the Adversary(Satan) are not a part of Yahowah's family, in fact they are actively working against Yahowah and his children. Examples of those aligned with Satan and joining him in his fate are Paul, Muhammad, and every pope/pastor/reverend/missionary who has spread Satan's diseased doctrines. Just as Yahowah's family joins him for eternity, Satan's family will join him for eternity. Most people don't really pick a side, and thus they are ignored, ceasing to exist at the end of their lives.

Note that I am not trying to change your mind on this. I use this as a study outlet for myself as I pursue the truth. What you do with the information is between you and Yah. I will redact any errant statements as long as evidence and reasoned arguments are presented. If you continue to only provide your opinion without evidence and research, then only I will benefit from the exercise. This is absolutely about being right, and evidence and reason are the determining factors. I only care about finding truth, and my motivation is to discover what Yahowah says on the matter, as his perspective is the only one that counts. You can tend to look at things however you want, but without evidence grounded in Yahowah's words, it is only belief.

So far as you've revealed, you believe that She'owl(the place of eternal separation) is torture by Yahowah, and by that reasoning it cannot exist, despite the evidence in Yahowah's words. You believe that there are only two destinations for a soul: eternity with Yahowah, or obliteration, despite the continued presence and eternal nature of Halal ben Shachar as Adversary to Yah's family, who's eternal incarceration happens at the end of the fulfillment of Sukah. Is this really what you believe?
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: Bob Shaffer on November 26, 2015, 11:57:27 am
I note that you require long complex, convoluted statements to support your position where I use short, simple statements - I believe God has plans so that the overwhelming majority of mankind will be saved otherwise this makes satan a winner to one degree or the other.  Logic and many scriptural references support this - I just don't have the time to argue my position more than what I've done already.   Try googling the question "Do you have an immortal soul?"
Title: Re: Eternal punishment
Post by: a_frickin_american on November 26, 2015, 12:35:32 pm
   God's word says "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die" - not "it shall suffer eternal torment because it's immortal".   

Crazy how most religious people are still believing the serpent rather than believing the Creator!